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Jesus: You understand well. But remember the spirit in which you write.

Paul: Not to shame or condemn, but to restore. Not to prove yourself right, but to prove Christ faithful.

Craig: And the goal isn't to win arguments or build my own platform, but to call people back to simple obedience to Your actual words and example.

Jesus: My sheep hear My voice and follow Me. Speak with My voice, and My sheep will recognize it.

Craig: Master, there's something beautiful about this conversation we're having. We're not debating—You're teaching, Paul is assisting, and I'm learning. This is the pattern You established, isn't it?

Jesus: This is how truth is transmitted in My Kingdom. Not through argument and counter-argument, but through revelation received and humbly shared.

Paul: When I taught in the synagogues and marketplaces, I reasoned from the Scriptures, but I didn't engage in philosophical debates for their own sake. I pointed to Christ crucified and risen.

Craig: So when I write, I should follow this same pattern—teach truth clearly, support it with Scripture, and let the Holy Spirit do the convincing.

Jesus: The Spirit of truth will guide readers into all truth. Your job is to speak My words clearly and live them authentically.

Craig: Master, there's something else the Holy Spirit has been showing me. In Revelation, You call Your people to "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins and receive of her plagues." Are these Christian political movements part of the Babylon system You're calling us to leave?

Jesus: His eyes suddenly intense What do you understand Babylon to represent?

Craig: A system... a way of doing things that looks godly on the surface but operates by the world's principles instead of Yours.

Paul: In my day, I warned about those who had a form of godliness but denied its power. Babylon isn't just obviously evil—it's deceptively religious.

Craig: That's exactly what I'm seeing! Christian Nationalism uses Christian language, quotes Scripture, claims to serve You—but it operates by political power, human manipulation, earthly methods.

Jesus: What did John write about the characteristics of Babylon?

Craig: thinking carefully That she was drunk with the blood of the saints... that she deceived the nations with her sorceries... that she made the merchants of the earth rich through her luxury... that she said in her heart "I sit as a queen and will never see mourning."

Jesus: And how does this apply to what you observe in these movements?

Craig: The blood of the saints—they're destroying the spiritual lives of believers, leading them away from Your actual commands. The deception—they're using Your name to promote worldly agendas. The merchants getting rich—these prophecy teachers and political leaders are making fortunes off of the confusion.

Paul: And the pride—"I sit as a queen"—they believe they can establish God's kingdom through human political power, that they can avoid the suffering and persecution that comes with true discipleship.

Craig: So when You say "Come out of her, my people," You're not just talking about leaving a physical location, but leaving a way of thinking and operating?

Jesus: My call has always been the same: "Follow Me." To follow Me means to leave behind the world's methods, the world's goals, the world's definitions of success.

Paul: When I wrote to the Corinthians, I said "Come out from among them and be separate." This wasn't geographical separation—it was spiritual and methodological separation from worldly ways of doing God's work.

Craig: But Master, many of these believers think they ARE serving You by engaging in political action, by fighting culture wars, by trying to make America Christian again.

Jesus: Remember when I cleansed the temple? What was My concern?

Craig: You said they had made Your Father's house a house of merchandise instead of a house of prayer.

Jesus: And what happened to those who were commercializing what should have been sacred?

Craig: You drove them out with a whip. You overturned their tables and scattered their coins.

Jesus: I did this twice, Craig. At the beginning of My ministry and at the end. What does that tell you?

Craig: realization dawning That this corruption keeps coming back! Even after You cleaned it out, it returned. The religious system kept trying to turn sacred things into profit.

Jesus: And what do you see happening today with prophecy and the Gospel?

Craig: The same thing! These teachers are making merchandise of Your return—selling books, charging for conferences, taking people on expensive cruises. They've turned Your Father's house into a marketplace again.

Paul: And just as the money changers claimed to be serving God by providing temple services, these modern merchants claim to be serving God by providing prophetic insight.

Craig: But Master, when You cleansed the temple, You used physical force. Should we do the same with these false teachers?

Jesus: What did I tell Peter when he drew his sword to defend Me?

Craig: To put it away, because those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Jesus: The cleansing of the temple was My unique authority as the Son of God. But notice—I cleansed the institution, I didn't attack the people personally. The whip was for driving out the animals, not whipping the merchants.

Paul: And remember, Craig—our weapons are not carnal but spiritual, mighty through God for pulling down strongholds.

Craig: So the application isn't physical force, but spiritual authority to expose and separate from commercialized religion?

Jesus: Exactly. Call My people out of the marketplace mentality. Show them the difference between genuine ministry and spiritual merchandising.

Craig: Master, there's another event that troubles me—Ananias and Sapphira dropping dead when they lied about their offering. What does that teach us about these movements?

Jesus: What was their sin, Craig?

Craig: They lied to the Holy Spirit. They pretended to give everything while secretly holding back part of the price.

Paul: But remember—Peter told them they weren't required to sell their property or give the money. Their sin wasn't in keeping some for themselves, but in lying about it.

Craig: understanding growing They wanted the reputation of total sacrifice without the reality of it. They wanted to appear more spiritual than they actually were.

Jesus: And what do you see in these Christian political movements?

Craig: The same thing! They want the reputation of serving You without the reality of following Your actual methods. They want to appear righteous while using unrighteous means.

Paul: They lie to the Holy Spirit by claiming to build God's kingdom while using Satan's tools of political manipulation, division, and worldly power.

Craig: And the judgment was immediate and severe because it threatened the integrity of the early church.

Jesus: In times of new beginning—like the early church or the end times—I sometimes act with swift judgment to preserve the purity of My work.

Craig: Is that what's happening now? Are these movements facing divine judgment even as they claim success?

Jesus: What fruit do you observe? Division where I prayed for unity? Hatred where I commanded love? Pride where I demonstrated humility?

Paul: Craig, remember what I wrote: "God is not mocked; whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." The judgment may not be as immediate as with Ananias and Sapphira, but it's just as certain.

Craig: The movements are fragmenting, the leaders are being exposed, the unity they promised is turning to chaos.

Jesus: When people try to build My kingdom on lies—even well-intentioned lies—the foundation will not hold.

Craig: Master, this brings up something else that's been troubling me. You commanded us to love our enemies, but these movements seem to specialize in creating and fighting enemies. How do I reconcile this?

Jesus: What did I say about loving enemies?

Craig: "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

Jesus: And who did I identify as My enemies during My earthly ministry?

Craig: thinking Actually... You didn't treat anyone as an enemy. Even Judas, even the Pharisees, even Pilate—You responded with love, truth, or sorrowful correction.

Jesus: Even from the cross, what did I say about those crucifying Me?

Craig: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Paul: But these movements spend their time identifying enemies—Democrats, liberals, secular humanists, the deep state—and mobilizing hatred against them.

Craig: They've completely reversed Your command! Instead of loving enemies, they're creating enemies to hate.

Jesus: What did I say would identify My disciples?

Craig: "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Jesus: Not by your political victories, not by your cultural influence, not by your ability to defeat opponents—but by your love.

Craig: And Master, You demonstrated this love in the most radical way possible—by washing the disciples' feet. Even Judas's feet, knowing he would betray You.

Jesus: What was I teaching them in that moment?

Craig: That in Your kingdom, leadership means service, not dominance. The greatest among us is the servant of all.

Paul: I learned this lesson well. Though I had every credential to boast—Hebrew of Hebrews, Pharisee of Pharisees—I counted it all as loss for the excellence of knowing Christ.

Craig: But these movements are all about gaining position, accumulating influence, wielding power over others. They're going exactly the opposite direction from the foot-washing.

Jesus: What did I say about those who would be great in My kingdom?

Craig: That whoever wants to be first must be last, and whoever wants to be chief must be servant of all.

Jesus: And yet what do you observe these leaders seeking?

Craig: First place! Top positions! Chief influence! They want to be first in the political realm, first in cultural influence, first in public recognition.

Paul: They have missed the upside-down nature of the Kingdom entirely. They're climbing the ladder of worldly success while Jesus calls us to descend the ladder of humble service.

Craig: And Master, You said something even more radical: "Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it, but whoever seeks to save his life will lose it."

Jesus: What does it mean to lose your life for My sake?

Craig: To give up your own agenda, your own ambitions, your own methods—even your own political preferences—and follow only You.

Jesus: And what does it mean to seek to save your life?

Craig: To protect your earthly interests, your political power, your cultural influence, your reputation—even if it means compromising Your teachings.

Paul: Craig, do you see the irony? These movements that claim to be saving Christian America are actually losing their souls in the process.

Craig: They're gaining the whole world—or trying to—but losing their spiritual lives!

Jesus: What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

Craig: Master, this is devastating. They think they're fighting for You, but they're actually fighting against Your very nature and methods.

Jesus: Remember what I told James and John when they wanted to call down fire on the Samaritan village?

Craig: You said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them."

Jesus: And what spirit drives these political movements?

Craig: A spirit of destruction—destroying opponents, destroying institutions, destroying anyone who stands in their way. Not a spirit of salvation.

Paul: They have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. They seek to establish their own righteousness rather than submitting to the righteousness of God.

Craig: It's like they've taken every Kingdom principle You taught and inverted it. Instead of losing life, they seek to save it. Instead of being last, they fight to be first. Instead of loving enemies, they create enemies. Instead of serving, they seek to rule.

Jesus: This is what happens when people try to use My name to accomplish their own purposes rather than abandoning their purposes to accomplish Mine.

Craig: Master, when I write about this, how do I help people see that everything they think they're doing for You is actually opposed to You?

Jesus: Show them the contrast, just as we're doing now. My way versus their way. My methods versus their methods. My fruit versus their fruit.

Paul: And Craig, remember—speak with the same spirit Jesus demonstrated. Even when exposing error, do it with the gentleness and humility that comes from foot-washing love.

Craig: So I don't write to destroy these leaders or shame these movements, but to call them back to the upside-down ways of the Kingdom?

Jesus: The same love that drove Me to cleanse the temple also drove Me to die for those who were defiling it.

Craig: That's the heart I need—broken for the deception, but loving toward the deceived.

Jesus: Now you understand. Truth without love is brutality. Love without truth is sentimentality. But truth spoken in love has the power to set captives free.

Craig: But Master, many of these believers think they ARE serving You by engaging in political action, by fighting culture wars, by trying to make America Christian again.

Jesus: Did I not warn that many would say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and do many wonders in Your name?" And what will I say to them?

Craig: "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Jesus: They practice lawlessness not because they break human laws, but because they operate outside of My Kingdom's laws and methods.

Paul: Craig, remember what I wrote about Babylon's merchants weeping when she falls? "And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore."

Craig: The merchandise... These movements have turned Your Gospel into merchandise! Books, conferences, cruises, political campaigns—they've commercialized what should be freely given.

Jesus: What did I say about freely receiving and freely giving?

Craig: That what we've received freely, we should give freely. But these teachers charge thousands for prophecy conferences, sell expensive books about the end times, take people on luxury cruises to teach about Your return.

Paul: They have made the house of prayer a house of merchandise, just like the money changers in the temple.

Craig: And the political movements—they're selling the idea that we can buy our way to righteousness through political donations, that we can purchase godliness through voting for the right candidates.

Jesus: Tell Me, what did I say about serving two masters?

Craig: That no one can serve both God and mammon. You'll love one and hate the other.

Jesus: And yet these movements ask My people to serve both My Kingdom and earthly political kingdoms, to use both My methods and the world's methods, to seek both heavenly and earthly power.

Paul: This is the very mixture that John called spiritual adultery—claiming to be married to Christ while being intimate with the world's systems.

Craig: realization dawning Master, when You call us to come out of Babylon, You're calling us to come out of this entire way of thinking—this idea that we can advance Your Kingdom through worldly means!

Jesus: Babylon represents every human attempt to reach heaven through earthly methods, to build My Kingdom with the world's tools, to achieve godly ends through ungodly means.

Paul: Remember the tower of Babel—men trying to build their way to heaven through human effort and organization. Babylon is the same spirit in religious clothing.

Craig: So Christian Nationalism is modern Babel—trying to build God's kingdom through human political organization and effort!

Jesus: And what did the Father do to the original Babel project?

Craig: He confused their languages and scattered them. He stopped their work because it was rebellion disguised as religiosity.

Jesus: And what am I doing now with these modern attempts to build My Kingdom through political power?

Craig: looking around at the chaos and division You're... You're confusing their efforts, aren't You? The movements are fragmenting, the leaders are contradicting each other, the unity they claimed is falling apart.

Paul: When people try to do God's work in their own strength, through their own methods, God allows them to experience the futility of their efforts.

Craig: That's why these movements produce such bad fruit—division, anger, violence, commercialization. They're under judgment even as they claim to serve You.

Jesus: What does Revelation say happens to those who refuse to come out of Babylon?

Craig: They share in her sins and receive her plagues. They become complicit in the deception and suffer the consequences.

Jesus: And yet My people can still hear My voice calling them out, even from the midst of these deceptions.

Paul: This is why your message is so urgent, Craig. You're literally calling people to "come out" of these Babylonian systems before they share in their judgment.

Craig: But Master, how do I help people see that these movements they think are godly are actually Babylonian systems in disguise?

Jesus: The same way I exposed the religious systems of My day—by demonstrating a completely different way of operating.

Paul: Don't just criticize the false—model the true. Show them what Kingdom methodology actually looks like.

Craig: So instead of engaging in political debate, I teach. Instead of building earthly movements, I make disciples. Instead of seeking temporal power, I demonstrate spiritual authority through humble service.

Jesus: Now you understand. Coming out of Babylon isn't just about avoiding false systems—it's about fully embracing My Kingdom's ways.

Paul: And Craig, remember—those who come out of Babylon often face persecution from those still in it. Don't be surprised if religious people become your strongest opponents.

Craig: Like they did with You, Master. The religious establishment crucified You, not the secular world.

Jesus: The world knew not what it was doing, but the religious leaders knew exactly what they were rejecting—a Kingdom that made their earthly kingdoms obsolete.

Craig: That's what's happening now, isn't it? These Christian political movements are really defending their earthly kingdoms against Your eternal Kingdom.

Jesus: They prefer being big fish in small ponds to being small fish in the infinite ocean of My Kingdom.

Paul: Pride, Craig. The pride of life. They'd rather be leaders in earthly movements than servants in the Kingdom of heaven.

Craig: Master, when I write about coming out of Babylon, how do I help people see the urgency without creating fear or panic?

Jesus: What emotion did I express when I called people out of Jerusalem before its destruction?

Craig: Sorrow. Deep sorrow. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Jesus: Love grieves when it sees beloved ones choosing destruction. Write with that same heart—not angry condemnation, but sorrowful love.

Paul: And remember, Craig—people don't just need to see what they're coming OUT of, they need to see what they're coming INTO.

Craig: Your Kingdom. The real thing. The eternal reality that makes all these earthly substitutes look like the cheap counterfeits they are.

Jesus: Exactly. When people see the genuine article, the counterfeit loses its appeal.

Craig: So I write not just to expose Babylon, but to reveal the beauty and simplicity of Your actual Kingdom.

Jesus: My yoke is easy and My burden is light. Babylon's yoke is heavy and her burden is crushing.

Paul: The believers caught up in these movements are exhausted, Craig. They're tired of the constant fighting, the endless campaigns, the perpetual outrage. They're hungry for the peace that passes understanding.

Craig: That's the real tragedy, isn't it? They're working so hard to build something You're not building, missing the rest You offer to those who simply follow You.

Jesus: Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. This invitation is still open, even to those caught up in Babylonian systems.

Craig: Master, I need to understand something. In Revelation, You judge Babylon harshly—"In one hour your judgment has come." But You also call Your people out of her with love. How do I balance those two realities in my writing?

Jesus: What did I do when I cleansed the temple?

Craig: You drove out the money changers with righteous anger, but You healed the blind and lame who came to You there.

Jesus: Judgment for the system, mercy for the people trapped in it. Hatred for the sin, love for the sinner.

Paul: When I wrote to the Galatians about their deception, I was forceful: "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?" But I also said, "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you."

Craig: So I can be strong in exposing the deception while being tender toward those who are deceived.

Jesus: The truth sets people free, but it must be spoken in love to be received by those who need freedom most.

Craig: Master, there's one more aspect of Babylon I need to understand. Revelation says she's "the mother of harlots." What does that mean for these movements?

Jesus: What is spiritual harlotry?

Craig: Unfaithfulness to You. Spiritual adultery. Being intimate with other lovers while claiming to belong to You.

Jesus: And what are these movements being intimate with?

Craig: Political power. Earthly success. Human approval. Temporal influence. They're committing adultery with the very systems You called them to come out of.

Paul: And just as physical harlotry produces illegitimate offspring, spiritual harlotry produces movements that look like they belong to God but have a different father.

Craig: That's why the fruit is so wrong—anger instead of love, division instead of unity, pride instead of humility. They're producing children that don't look like their supposed Father.

Jesus: By their fruits you shall know them. The fruit reveals the true parentage.

Craig: And Babylon being the "mother" means she's constantly reproducing—creating more and more movements that claim to serve You but actually serve the world's agenda.

Paul: Each generation thinks they've found the right way to marry the Gospel with worldly power, not realizing they're just the latest offspring of ancient Babylon.

Craig: So Christian Nationalism isn't new—it's just the current iteration of the same old attempt to build God's kingdom through human methods.

Jesus: The Crusades, the Inquisition, state churches that persecuted dissenters—all children of the same mother.

Paul: Every time the church has tried to advance God's kingdom through political power, it has produced persecution, not conversion. Force, not faith.

Craig: Master, this makes the call to "come out" even more urgent. People need to see that they're not involved in something new and righteous, but in something ancient and corrupt.

Jesus: What did I say about the broad way versus the narrow way?

Craig: That the broad way that leads to destruction has many travelers, but the narrow way that leads to life has few who find it.

Jesus: These movements promise the broad way to victory—easy political solutions, earthly success, popular support. But My way has always been narrow.

Paul: The cross is still foolishness to those who are perishing, Craig. Don't expect the Babylonian way to be unpopular—expect it to have mass appeal.

Craig: That's why so many believers are attracted to these movements. They promise to advance God's kingdom without requiring personal sacrifice, without taking up their cross.

Jesus: They promise My crown without My cross, My glory without My suffering, My kingdom without My character.

Craig: But that's impossible, isn't it? We can't get to Your destination by a different route than the one You took.

Jesus: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me—and that includes coming to My Kingdom through My methods.

Paul: Craig, when you write about coming out of Babylon, emphasize this: it's not just about avoiding false systems, it's about embracing the narrow way that leads to life.

Craig: looking up through the olive branches Master, I can feel the lateness of the hour. Wars escalating, society fragmenting, even the church dividing. Your call to "come out of Babylon" is sounding louder than ever. How urgent is this message?

Jesus: What did I say about the fig tree?

Craig: When its branches become tender and it puts forth leaves, we know that summer is near.

Jesus: And what did I say about this generation?

Craig: That it will not pass away until all these things take place.

Paul: Craig, we may be the last generation to have this opportunity. The time is short. People need to hear truth before it's too late.

Craig: Then I can't delay. I can't worry about offending people or being controversial. Souls are at stake.
Jesus: Remember Ezekiel's watchman. If he sees the sword coming and doesn't blow the trumpet to warn the people, their blood is on his hands.

Paul: You've seen the deception, Craig. You've been given understanding. With that comes responsibility.

Craig: standing up with determination Then I'll write. I'll tell the story of this conversation, using every word, every insight, every Scripture we've discussed. I'll show the contrast between Your Kingdom ways and the ways of these Babylonian movements. I'll call people to come out of these systems and follow You alone.

Jesus: Write with My authority but not with human arrogance. Write with My love but not with human sentimentality. Write with My urgency but not with human panic. And remember—you're calling people out of Babylon and into My Kingdom.

Paul: The call to "come out" isn't just negative—it's the most positive invitation imaginable. You're calling them from slavery to freedom, from confusion to clarity, from death to life.

Paul: And remember—you're not writing to create another movement or build your own following. You're writing to point people to Christ and His soon coming.

Craig: Master, will You give me the words? Will You help me say this in a way that opens eyes instead of closing them?

Jesus: What did I promise about the Holy Spirit?

Craig: That He would teach us all things and bring to remembrance everything You said.

Jesus: Trust Him to give you words, and trust Him to prepare hearts to receive them.

Craig: putting his Raiders cap back on Then it's settled. I write not as a debater or an arguer, but as a teacher sharing what I've learned from the Master Teacher.

Paul: And Craig—don't be surprised if this message is rejected by many. When I brought the Gospel to my own people, most rejected it. Truth has always been a stumbling block to some and foolishness to others.

Craig: But to those who are called, it will be the power and wisdom of God.

Jesus: Exactly. Write for My sheep who are scattered among the wolves. Write for those who are tired of the noise and long for My voice. Write for those who sense something is wrong but can't quite put their finger on it.

Craig: I will, Master. I'll write it all—every revelation, every Scripture, every contrast between Your ways and Babylon's ways. I'll tell the story of this bench conversation and let people judge for themselves which kingdom they want to serve—the temporary kingdoms of this world or Your eternal Kingdom.

Paul: And when you're finished writing, what then?

Craig: Then I go back to doing what You actually commanded—making disciples, teaching them to observe all that You commanded, coming out of Babylon myself every day, and watching for Your return.

Jesus: standing, the conversation drawing to a close My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives peace through political victories or earthly security, but peace that passes understanding, peace that comes from knowing your citizenship is in heaven.

Paul: also standing Grace be with you, Craig. May the Lord direct your heart into the love of God and the patience of Christ.

Craig: remaining seated for a moment longer, absorbing it all Thank You, Master. Thank You for opening my eyes. Thank You for showing me the difference between Your Kingdom and the kingdoms of this world. I won't forget this conversation.

Jesus: His final words carrying the weight of eternity Remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. And that end is closer than most realize.

As Jesus and Paul began to fade from view, Craig sat alone on the bench beneath the olive tree, his heart full of both sorrow for the deception he'd witnessed and joy for the truth he'd received.

The conversation had ended, but the teaching would continue. Truth, once received, demands to be shared. And in the lateness of the hour, there was no time to waste.

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." - 2 Timothy 4:3-5

From the Bench Conversation by the Beach with Jesus and Paul - Complete Series

Part 1: The fundamental choice between divine governance and self-governance that began in Eden

Part 2: The urgent command to come out of Babylon's system of self-governance

Part 3: The exposure of digital Jonestown through AI-powered Christian nationalism

Part 4: The final hour

The Eden Revelation

The door is closing and there's no way we survive this except by looking up

The message is complete. The warning is delivered. The choice is yours.

Choose Christ. Choose His Kingdom. Choose divine governance.

The door is closing. Choose now.

THE Grace Awakening

THE Grace Awakening Study Guide

Who is Craig Rogers and KINGDOM Empowered?

Come Meet King Jesus

THE GRACE AWAKENING for Those Left Behind

The American Remnant - Left Behind Plan